Mystery Solved!

"Murphie" (tomforhan) 09/30/2016 at 14:33 • Filed to: None

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Just found this circa 1928 photo of my dad and his brother (in shorts). On the back, in what I take to be my uncle’s handwriting: “a picture of us fixing the car”. I wonder what the car is..very distinctive radiator shape...

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Murphie 09/30/2016 at 15:04

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There are two points to the oddness of the radiator shape. The first is that it’s a vee: almost nobody in the US made a vee grill before around ‘31 in any kind of numbers. Benz and some of the foreign concerns had them, and I think there was a little flirting with it as a design element, but they were *not* common. The second is the trapezoid profile. That is weird as shit, and the only ones I’m aware of so far with a bottom-side-heavy trapezoid grill would be some Franklins and some Oldsmobiles - this is neither. Frazer Nashes had one that was flipped.

The overall construction of the grill is like some Marmons and Hupmobiles, but I’m not aware of a match. Still looking.

Berang > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 09/30/2016 at 15:23

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I also find it very odd. I suspect a coachbuilder. Maybe Dagmar.

Jonee > Murphie 09/30/2016 at 15:26

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Fantastic photograph. So evocative of that era. That car is an intriguing mystery. It could be something pretty obscure.

Jonee > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 09/30/2016 at 15:30

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Yeah, I’m having a hard time identifying it, too. Does look like a grille from a few years later. Chrysler maybe? Or, something really obscure like a Peerless, or Oakland.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Jonee 09/30/2016 at 15:34

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Had already tried a brute force search of Oaklands, added Peerless for fun - no luck so far. Pierce Arrow is out, as is Packard, probably even for coach versions, because of the headlight idiosyncracy and grill top weirdness respectively.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Berang 09/30/2016 at 15:37

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My initial thought was that the seemingly odd hood design and not-straight radiator sides that we might be seeing an air-cooled thing with a fake radiator like some unusual Franklin, but if that’s as it appears a true radiator cap with temp gauge, it’s clearly not.

Murphie > Berang 09/30/2016 at 15:54

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Coach built is a definite possibility. There were $$$

Murphie > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 09/30/2016 at 15:57

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If the photo was taken in 1930 my dad would be 18. I just don’t see that in his face... and my uncle would be 15, and still in shorts? Just looking for all the clues.

accordingto > Murphie 09/30/2016 at 16:30

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Are we sure of what country they were in? Might it be a foreign make?

MUSASHI66 > Murphie 09/30/2016 at 16:30

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Wow,1928? My oldest grandfather was born in 1928. Are you like the oldest opponaut here? You must be 80 :)

Murphie > MUSASHI66 09/30/2016 at 16:38

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Nah, my dad was in no rush. :)

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Jonee 09/30/2016 at 16:51

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I keep coming back to thinking that the tapered shape in the grill came from *somewhere*, rather than just springing into existence in a coachbuild. Which doesn’t mean this isn’t a coachbuild, I’m leaning that way more and more - it just might be that the underneath car had a tapered radiator. One such possibility might be a Willys-Knight - an upscale Willys with a quiet sleeve valve engine.

Unusual choice, but not impossible either.

Jonee > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 09/30/2016 at 17:11

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I was wondering if that grille was an add-on. Perhaps it’s even upside-down, which would be weird, but maybe that’s the only way it fit. The nose is also the shape of a Renault of that vintage. Those were grille-less. That does look like a nice place and those kids are well dressed, so maybe they could afford a coach built car.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Jonee 09/30/2016 at 17:22

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Murphie said expressly (in reply to Berang) that coachbuilt was possible and there was money. While the apparent vee seemingly militates for it to be a later model year, the edge around the grill appears to be a much simpler stamping - smaller radius single-radius bends, as you’d expect to see on a late 20s car rather than a 30s model, and much easier to make in a coachbuilder’s shop. That, and the headlights have a clamshell mount for the lens, not a fancy trimmed housing. I think ‘28 is perfectly believable, or even a year or two before, which leaves you with the Holmes axiom: when you’ve eliminated the impossible, what remains, however unlikely, is probably the truth.

Jonee > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 09/30/2016 at 17:41

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That is a very standard temp gauge, although those were common even on factory cars. I was thinking if the photo was from ‘28, the car is probably at least a year old if they’re already tinkering with it, but then you never know. I wonder if Murphie has any other pictures. Do we know where he’s from? That might narrow down possible coachbuilders.

Murphie > Jonee 09/30/2016 at 18:25

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No other pictures, sorry. My estimate at the year is based on guessing at the ages of the boys, known birthdates and the age based clothing styles. Maybe we need a fashion historian too! The family was wealthy. The grandfather maintained a house in Manhattan and then in the mid twenties built a house in Pelham, just north of NYC. I presumed thus was taken there, but that garage does not look that new. That raises another possibility - that the photo was taken in France where the mother lived while the boys went to school in England. And I do remember a picture of her Renault there, and it had the slope nose, but the boys in that picture were smaller.

Murphie > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 09/30/2016 at 18:47

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Much later but here is a ‘34 Chrysler. This shell might be more complex. And that would make the younger boy 19.

Murphie > accordingto 09/30/2016 at 19:03

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Important point, thanks. In the late ‘20s the family had a home in Pelham NY, but their mother spent a lot of time in Paris while they went to a boarding school in England. I know, it was tough.

accordingto > Murphie 09/30/2016 at 20:02

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Hmmm, home on summer break or was this a project car at school?

Murphie > accordingto 09/30/2016 at 20:07

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Their mother did keep a car in Paris. But immigration records show them coming back annually.

STAGGERED-6 > Murphie 09/30/2016 at 22:16

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Looks very much like a 1922 Panhard, the French connection would make sense too. Their early cars all had the same unusual radiator geometry. Not sure but it’s pretty close.

STAGGERED-6 > STAGGERED-6 10/01/2016 at 09:40

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Found a picture of the 1922, the radiator ornament also very closely matches your picture as well, kinda of distinct ornament given that most car makers outside of Mercedes didn’t use round ornaments. I’m thinking this may be it, but it’s hard to tell given there were so many different custom ornaments available back them.

Murphie > STAGGERED-6 10/01/2016 at 12:51

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You are absolutely right, could be a ‘24, or whatever. But certainly a mid-twenties Panhard. Thanks so much!

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Jonee 10/03/2016 at 08:43

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Turned out to be a Panhard, in case you missed it. I tried Citroens and even some of the small Brit names, but completely forgot to check ‘20s Panhards, which it was.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Murphie 10/03/2016 at 08:45

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I checked back in after I went home from work, and saw that France had become more likely - and suddenly remembered Panhard. Looked it up, yep. Figured “well, I’ll post it in the morning”, but Staggered-6 beat me to it. I feel really dumb because I’m a big fan of the ‘30s Panhard (the Dynamic), but this one, not so much.

Jonee > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/03/2016 at 11:09

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Ah, thanks. I’m kicking myself because now it does look like a Panhard and I love Panhards. Once he said it could have been Europe, we should have thought of that.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Jonee 10/03/2016 at 11:18

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I started out trying to think of brands from Europe that could conceivably been imported, but that was a mistake. There were actually a few Citroens and random insanity that people imported in the 20s, but the odds of it being something like a Panhard, probably less so.

It’s interesting how on a couple of points the Panhard is ten years ahead of its time - vee grill with a backward tilt, longitudinal leaf springs, the Panhard rod-located rear suspension... but at the same time, they held on to sleeve valve engines for a time and had flat-stamped fenders and some brass finishing work. A mix of the already dead end and the exceptionally visionary.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Jonee 10/03/2016 at 11:29

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I put up a post of Panhard Stuff. Mostly 1920s ad copy.

Jonee > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/05/2016 at 14:28

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If you were wealthy enough back then, you could import anything and the French were on the cutting edge at the time. There was a Renault on the Titanic after all. It is pretty fascinating how they were experimenting with certain engineering aspects, and took that “if it ain’t broke..” attitude about others. I think that wasn’t uncommon in those days. Plenty of technological dead ends along side brilliant solutions we still use. Panhard kept that going until their death. The Dyna, PL17, and BT24 all had crazy ideas.